Avoiding early morning classes (and asking on the job market)

In our most recent "how can we help you?" thread, a reader asks:

For those of you with jobs - how easy is it to get out of teaching classes early in the morning (8-9am)? I am a PhD student who has had to teach at 8am and I didn't enjoy it (I'm a night owl and think it's just genetic). I would genuinely want to know more about the flexibility of the teaching schedule before accepting a job somewhere - would asking questions like that be frowned upon or hurt my candidacy? Does this vary a lot from school to school?

I suspect this is highly situation-specific. In my department, it's pretty easy to avoid early-morning classes due to the university's scheduling rules and guidelines. But I've been in other departments where many faculty were regularly expected to teach first thing in morning. But maybe my information is out of date, so it'd be good to hear from others. As for the job-market, I'm not sure what to advise, but I guess I'm inclined to say that it would be safer to wait to ask questions like these until after an offer is made, as I suppose it could backfire on a candidate to ask earlier. Then again, candidates are "interviewing departments" no less than the converse, so if this is important to a candidate (or a deal-breaker), then by all means ask.

But these are just a few of my quick reactions. What are yours?

Comments

[New prof]

In my experience, what drives the choice of class times is student demand. If students never enroll in early morning classes, neither you, nor anyone else in the department, will be asked to teach early. However, you might have certain student populations--at my institution, athletes--who prefer early morning classes. So, insofar as your chair has to get students to enroll in courses, you are at the mercy of the various contingent features of your institution.

However, my general take is that having such strong preferences about *teaching times* such that one would ask about them in an interview process is fairly unprofessional. It is one thing to tell your chair you can't teach before 9 because of childcare needs, et cetera. It is another thing to say you can't teach before 11 because you are naturally disposed to stay up late.

[anonymous owl]

Also a night owl--in the several jobs I've had I've never been assigned early morning classes, so I'm lucky. Usually nicer jobs (TT or some VAPs) will ask for your input on your schedule. Where I am now we don't have many morning classes, but the early bird faculty get them. I ask for nothing before 10. I definitely wouldn't suggest asking before an offer is made. One thing you could do is look at the schedules, if you can find them, and see when most classes are in the department; or in a second round interview you might ask what a typical teaching schedule looks like.

[Tenured now]

At my university you also tend to have a fair amount of control over when your classes are scheduled. I would absolutely NOT ask about this until after an offer is made - and if you do ask, I would ask only in the context of more general questions about control over teaching (are there set classes you need to teach, or is there space to design new ones? Are there set materials they want you to cover, or do you have freedom over the syllabus? etc)

[Assistant Professor]

Most commenters suggest not asking about scheduling during the interview process - but like Tenured Now says, you can find ways to collect information without asking if you can have control over your teaching schedule. As about what times of day classes seem to fill up most, or ask about what people have found the most successful schedule for certain kinds of classes. Show interest in how the department makes decisions about course offerings and timing (or learn that it is entirely out of their control and it is up to the administration!). Leading with curiosity never hurts and may show you are genuinely thinking about what it would look like to work in this specific place.

[Anon]

It is a job. Unless there are medical or care (or some other legitimate) reasons, you might have to teach either early in the day. You might also have to go to some meetings early in the day. Refusing to do this is I think shows an unprofessional approach and/or indicates that you would be a poor colleague. If you do not teach in that slot, someone else will have to, and they too might have a preference (which is all that OP seems to have - a preference) for teaching later too. If I had someone ask this without justifying why it was a genuine issue for them, it would certainly impact on whether I would support them for the job. Administrative colleagues would never suppose that they could ask these sorts of questions, and they will be required to be available early in the day year round. You might have to some years. I'm sorry if this sounds mean, but you need to find a way to cope.

[H]

At the universities I've been at where I'm forced to teach early classes, this is usually because of classroom space constraints. If the department doesn't have enough classrooms they control, they may be forced to run early classes because the alternative is not running them at all.

You can get an idea of this in the interview by asking questions like, "How does class scheduling work?" or "How much will my teaching schedule be influenced by classroom availability?" These questions will likely yield the desired answers and will help you understand the logistics of the department better, and this may even help you understand how the department relates to the administration.

[Guy]

I'm at a CC and have significant control over avoiding such things as long as (1) there is no significant student demand to offer courses at that time or (2) there are adjuncts willing to do that sort of thing should student demand require us to offer anything at inconvenient (for me) times.

[I wouldn't]

Just to repeat what others have said, do not mention this sort of thing before you are offered the job. In the searches I have been involved in, there are always more than enough qualified candidates, and if a candidate raised such an issue early on, someone on the committee would take it as grounds for removing them from the pool of qualified candidates. And, given the surplus of qualified people, it is unlikely anyone would object or go to the wall for the candidate.
I had one job (non-TT) where the person making the schedule was an @hole ... scheduling me for a night class that ended at 10, and a morning class the next day. But this is really quite rare.

[Worth echoing]

I just want to echo what Tenured Now says: "I would absolutely NOT ask about this until after an offer is made - and if you do ask, I would ask only in the context of more general questions about control over teaching (are there set classes you need to teach, or is there space to design new ones? Are there set materials they want you to cover, or do you have freedom over the syllabus? etc)" THIS!

[The Real SLAC Prof]

Agreeing that you should not ask until after an offer is made. Even a whiff of being somewhat "difficult" when there are many other candidates being considered is highly imprudent.

As a fellow night owl, I sympathize. I disagree with those who might suggest that childcare is somehow a professional or legitimate reason for asking for flexibility in scheduling while circadian rhythms are not. But given the existence of that sort of prejudice, it is probably wise to keep your reasons for your scheduling preferences to yourself. I think the way to deal with strong preferences (of whatever variety) is to know what your dealbreakers are and be collegial. So if there are late afternoon/night sections or Friday teaching slots that are undesirable to others, make it clear that you are willing to teach at those times if your own preferences can be accommodated.

Every institution I have worked ran into real problems arising from faculty who only wanted to teach in the early afternoon, and you will likely encounter pressure from your chair or other administrators to avoid the prime, popular, time blocks. Having experienced such pressure, I've never had to teach morning classes, and I wouldn't accept a position where this is a requirement. I think it is feasible to never teach morning classes as long as you are willing to be flexible in other ways.

[Michel]

One thing to remember is that, in this profession, our schedules are not set in stone. You might have to teach in the morning sometimes, but you are not likely to _always_ have to do so. If you really don't want to, you can probably avoid it most of the time, of not all the time.

It's also worth noting that you can change. At your stage, I was also a night owl--I did my best work after 10pm. But I started gradually shifting myself earlier at the end of my PhD, and over the next several years. It became easier to do as I got more comfortable with doing the work. When I had a child, that cemented it; there's no time to night owl any more. So I don't; I do my work while the child naps. And, frankly, I think that's a lot better. I do more and better work, it's less stressful, and I enjoy my day more.

[Jan]

TT at an R1 here—always a breeze to get out of it.

[cecil.burrow]

I disagree with many others. Please ask about this in the interview stage, so I know not to hire you. If you are not ready to be an adult, there are hundreds of other job candidates who are.

[Tenured Owl]

Also a night owl, writing this at 3am. At most jobs I doubt you'll have to teach early classes or at least not often, maybe once in a while. But it's definitely bad form to ask about it before you're hired. Really, don't do it. Just hope for the best, and if you end up with an 8am slot, suck it up; it's what coffee is for.

[Marcus Arvan]

@cecil.burrow: Although I worried that your comment may lie on the borderline of this blog's safe and supportive mission, I published it for two reasons:

(1) candidates should probably know there are search committee members with views as strong as yours

(2) I want to push back against the suggestion that someone who wants to avoid early-morning classes isn't being an adult.

It's a well-documented fact that "morning birds" and "night owls" have different circadian clocks--and there's evidence that it's heritable. As anyone who has had serious jetlag knows, a sleep-wake cycle that is inconsistent with a person's circadian rhythm can be positively debilitating. Now imagine having jetlag every day of your life.

Here is how this can actually play out in a person's life. During my entire adult life through graduate school, I went to bed at 2am and awoke around 10am. As a night owl, I was simply never tired earlier than that. Once I got my first faculty job where I had to teach in the morning, I came down with severe insomnia. There were stretches of time when I wouldn't sleep for 3-4 days straight, and it profoundly impacted my ability to do the job. It was, in all honesty, a serious disability--and I struggled for almost 2 years to find an effective treatment. Standard insomnia treatments (Ambien, Lunesta, etc.) did nothing for me, nor did most other drugs (such as benzodiazapines for relaxation). After almost two years, as a sheer stroke of luck (a family member was treated for another condition with a drug that had somnolence as a side-effect), I happened upon one drug that actually enabled me to sleep. Had I not stumbled across it, I probably would not have a successful career today.

Long story short: for some people, wanting to avoid early work hours isn't as simple as "not being an adult." It can be a serious medical issue. Moreover, since a pretty large percentage of the population are night-owls, I'd suggest that we should be sensitive to the fact that it can be a serious issue for a lot of people. I suspect that many night owls seek out careers that enable flexibility for precisely these kinds of reasons, and that many people pursue careers in academia in search of such flexibility. People have every right to seek terms of employment that are consistent with their well-being--not to mention terms that will enable them to perform well on the job--and I suspect for many people in the OP's position, these are very much at issue. The fact that the world discriminates so much against night owls isn't a good thing, or I think: it makes things profoundly difficult for those of us who are, and have little or no control over it and the effects it has on our lives.

[sahpa]

Taking a step back: who is actually ever in the enviable position that unhappy or difficult class times can be a sufficient reason for them to *turn down a position*? The academic job market, you may have heard, is brutal. I think OP may be counting their chickens a bit here....

[Former_Night_Owl]

I wouldn't ask about it for the reasons others have said.

I'm chiming in because I want to mention that I used to be an extreme night owl, but quitting all stimulants -- including caffeine -- changed it. I was regularly going to sleep between 3-6 am, and I now pass out more around 12:30 am. True "delayed sleep phase syndrome" is rare. So, while my experience is anecdotal, I recommend anyone with this problem to completely cut out stimulants (e.g. caffeine) and see what happens.

[whatever]

@Marcus - it doesn't seem consistent with the blog's mission that this be a safe space for disarmingly privileged perspectives, like the OP's. Even if sleep problems can add up to a legitimate disability, the point here is that it is bad form to bring this kind of thing up when (a) there'll be faculty who may also struggle to sleep who still teach in the morning and (b) there are SURELY admin assistants, other staff, maintenance workers - i.e. members of the most exploited groups on any campus - who don't get to use their sleep problems as an excuse to set their schedule. No one is saying being a 'night owl' isn't a real health problem. What we're saying is that OP needs to have some perspective.

[Marcus Arvan]

@whatever: I have no issue with pointing any of that out, as those are all good points—and I recommend to the OP the same thing that most people in this thread have.

All I meant to take issue with is the implication/inference that someone who had concerns like the OP’s “isn’t being an adult.” The point of my comment was to point out that it can be more complicated than Cecil’s remark implied, and yes, I think the issues extend far beyond relatively privileged university faculty to workers in general (though I want to reaffirm that in my own case, these issues proved to be a serious health crisis).

On that note, a reader kindly sent me the following article: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/2/27/17058530/sleep-night-owl-late-riser-chronotype-science-delayed-sleep-phase

[Laurence B McCullough]

There are two good reasons to consider teaching at 8 am.

1. Your teaching for the day will be done early, leaving the rest of the day for your scholarly work and prepping next day's teaching. And freeing up the evening for family time or, as the case may be, scholarship.

2. Colleagues who need the morning to get children off to school, especially special needs children, or to tend to a parent with long-term care needs will appreciate your willingness not to add unwanted (or even impossible) complications to their lives.

[OP]

OP here. Thanks to Marcus and others for helpful responses. Just to clarify, my question was aimed specifically about the prospect of needing to teach at 8am, every weekday, for the rest of my life. I would rather pursue a different career than take a job where that was the expectation every single semester, for a variety of legitimate reasons that I have no need to justify to strangers on the internet. Based on people's experience, it sounds like that is extremely rare, which is great! That was what I was looking for.

Fwiw, *even if* I were not pursuing a career in philosophy I would be looking for this kind of flexibility. There are several careers out there that offer flexible schedules, like waiting tables, bartending, teaching evening classes, freelancing, many remote jobs, etc. It isn't a mark of privilege or a myopic perspective to seek out careers that offer this feature of employment given how such flexibility can contribute to some people's well-being. Many disabled people, for example, rely on them. Similarly, I will only apply to jobs in locations that I could see myself being happy in, and I don't see the two situations being very different at all. I simply don't subscribe to the (false) belief that *any* TT philosophy job is better than none. At some point, I would rather wait tables. *shock!!* Of course, I will surely not mention or ask about any of this unless I have an offer in hand—God forbid I make it known that I care about my well-being!

[dspd]

I would not bring up scheduling preferences during the interview stage unless there is some reason to think that your preferred times will be a benefit to the department. For example, if they ask about your willingness to teach late afternoons or evenings, you can say something.

In many departments, there is some scheduling flexibility built in. You might get lucky and land in a department with a bunch of early people with small children that want to be done by 2pm; you might also get unlucky. Since normal functioning adults generally wake up early, chances are good that if there is demand for late afternoon classes or evening classes, it will be harder to find willing instructors (so you can step in).

As a side note, I have DSPD, and it sucks. This is not a choice (I've tried all the 'lifestyle change' crap), and I'm old, so it is not youth related. Sometimes I have to teach in the morning, which means that I run on 3-4 hours of sleep.

Fortunately the nature of our job (aside from heavy teaching/extremely bureaucratic places that require 9-5 attendance) means that it is not every day or all day. I can frequently schedule a (long) nap after morning classes, and then return to scholarship at night when I am awake. In contrast with many other professional jobs, the schedule is do-able without serious consequences to my immune system.

[sahpa]

OP, thanks for the clarification. I doubt others will disagree with me here, but I think it would be extremely unlikely that you would ever end up in a higher-education teaching position where you have to teach at 8am, M-F, every day, for the rest of your life. That's just not how college course scheduling works.

Also, because I feel that the last part of your reply is mainly directly at me, I would request you re-read my reply. You are strawmanning my point pretty egregiously. Of course I never said that any TT job is better than none, as any even moderately careful reader can see.

[more assurance]

Right, to further reassure OP: in any decent department, it is not only guaranteed to not always teaching morning classes, but also easy to pull out from *any* morning classes as long as you are willing to do other stuff and compensating work. (In general, Do not expect to pull out for free, since other people also want fairness.) You can also state health reasons (if there are any) to admins.

So don't worry! On the other hand, it is getting a tt job in a decent department that is hard and impossible...

[Anony]

I just checked the Fall schedules for seven institutions in my area. These include a top R1, an R2, a couple regional four-year schools, and three community colleges.

Not a single one is offering a class starting before 9 a.m. this semester.

[Matt Tedesco]

I know I'm late to the party, but one suggestion to share: at many institutions, there are likely to be slots where people want to teach (likely mid-day either late morning or early afternoon, twice a week if possible), and those that people don't (early AM, late afternoon, evening). Because I also have a strong preference to not teach early AM, I've found it helpful to be proactive in figuring out the unpopular times and then volunteering to teach the ones that I don't mind. I'm typing this after 5pm, as one of the last ones in my building, because I jump on the unpopular late-day slots. I haven't taught before mid-day in years, and don't plan to.

But for sure, all this is for well after the interview and offer and acceptance and first few weeks/months on there gig.