Overlap between writing sample and job talk?

In our newest "how can we help you?" thread, a reader asks:

Can there be overlap between a writing sample and a job talk? I have a paper that I want to use as a writing sample in the next cycle. I’m also working on a separate paper that applies the theory worked out in the writing sample to a specific problem, which I think is fruitfully addressed with the resources I’ve developed. Since the application paper relies on the ideas worked out in the writing sample, there will be some overlap in content.

Would it be a mistake to use the application paper as a job talk when I’ve used the general paper as my writing sample?

Of course, I would find different ways to present the ideas (different examples, perhaps different order of presentation), but one section of the talk would clearly be a compressed rehearsal of the conclusions of my writing sample. I’m unsure whether to present work that is new and what I’m currently thinking about or something older but very different to my current project (if I get the chance to give a job talk at all!).

I don't see any problem here, but I wonder whether any readers disagree.

Anyone willing to weigh in? 

Comments

[Different papers]

It is advised at my medium to highly ranked program that one wants different papers for the writing sample and job talk.

[Nathan]

I've always intentionally aimed for at least some overlap as evidence of a more comprehensive research program.

[Trevor Hedberg]

From the description, the writing sample and job talk are related to one another but different enough that I do not expect it would pose any problem. I know of searches where candidates hurt their chances dramatically because the job talk and writing sample were basically identical. But in this case, I think the relationship between the topics would just show the breadth of the applicant's research program on that general topic.

[Surprise]

I've more regularly seen the advice to not have too much overlap between job talk and writing sample. Maybe that's a majority opinion? I feel like I would have the same view myself were I to be on a committee.

That said, I have seen a number of very high quality candidates give a job talk that was identical to their writing sample. Maybe this practice is clustered at one particular Leiterific school (which will remain nameless), but the fact that it happened at all was kind of shocking.

Maybe some candidates are just so competitive that they can present the same material and still get offers? Maybe, for some candidates, their writing sample is so good that anything else they might have in preparation pales in comparison?

I know this is supposed to be a comment, so I'll end with this: if you are competitive enough, or your writing sample is just that good, maybe it's ok to have significant overlap!

[Circe]

This is a really difficult question to navigate. In my case, I always thought, like Nathan, that overlap looks good--it shows an overarching research theme. But as others have said, it actually risks hurting your chances (for non-specialists, the two may seem too similar). I don't think there is any correlative risk to them being on different topics, conditional upon you having a sufficiently in-depth grasp of both. So I would suggest going for different topics; or, at least not advertising the overlap in your job talk.

[Chris]

I'm at an R1. At the very least, the writing sample and talk should amount to what could be published as two different articles. Like Nathan, I think there can be some plusses to having some overlap - it shows you have a research programme that is fruitful, and that you'll likely be able to publish productively. If there is enough novelty in each, then I think it is fine. In my experience in a large department, very often most of my colleagues aren't aware of the overlap. It is the specialists on the search committee that you need to impress. But of course in other departments this could be different.

I have also seen candidates try to present something quite different from the writing sample (in the same broad AOS), where their job talk wasn't nearly as good as the writing sample, and it hurt their candidacy.

Of course, if you have something completely different that is as good as your writing sample, it is probably better to go with that as your talk. But if you don't, I think it is OK to go with some overlap.

In the end, as surprise suggests, it matters whether you have something that is really good. Sometimes, your dissertation work has only one big positive idea, and the rest are just "secondary" critiques of others' views.

[jorbs]

I was on the job market last year and was advised against having the same writing sample and job talk. So, my job talks were on different projects than my writing samples. The only exceptions were in cases where the job talk element was replaced with a discussion with the committee about the writing sample (two of my five flyouts).

[be different]

Do this only if your talk has significant and new ideas independently of the WS, or if you don't have better alternatives. Ask everyone who has listened to your practice talk and read your WS for feedback.

Otherwise, the described overlap can hurt. Note that the overarching research program does not need to be shown by this kind of overlaps. For example, if you work on emergence of spacetime, you can show two very different paper projects on this same theme, which is preferable to two similar and related ones.

[academic migrant]

Try to make sure that they are presented different enough. I also had the advice that the job talk shouldn't be based on a known accepted paper, so if it happens that one accidentally publishes one's job talk and have nothing of comparative quality, one's prospects may be hurt.

I also got into a final round interview where all candidates were *required* to submit a work-in-progress (which replaces the presentation component of the job talk).

I personally found these norms incredibly challenging for people in a fixed term teaching position, where one basically has very little time to do new research.

[T]

this is a judgment call. It depends on how much better the overlapping work is than what you would present otherwise. If it is significantly better, do that, trying to frame it to minimise overlap. If it is not much better, then present something else. Better here should be read capaciously, to include factors like what work you are more comfortable presenting and can better defend in the Q&A.

[cecil burrow]

I think some level of overlap is fine, but the degree of overlap that is acceptable will depend on the career stage. If someone is fresh on the job market for the first time with their defense in the (near) future, then I could tolerate a decent amount of overlap (though I still wouldn't want the talk and writing sample to be identical.) On the other hand, if their defense was a few years in the past (and they have perhaps just finished a post-doc) then I would find significant overlap off-putting.