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« CFP: Marc Sanders Metaphysics Prize | Main | Grad School Survival Guide - Part 1: How to Hit the Ground Running »

01/09/2017

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Beelzebub

Any news on Rutgers-Newark, University of Houston, Radford, or Susquehanna?

Tom

News about Creighton University scheduling on campus interviews? Nothing on the Wiki so far, but they should have sent out emails about that by now

acqueprendo

Anyone heard back from any of these: USC's Dana and David Dornsife College, Iona College, California State University (Fresno), Boston College, CUNY-Lehman, or St. Patrick’s Seminary and University?

Words McCaffee

In late December, I got a request from USC for more materials, but nothing since. I'd guess they would have figured out their short list by now, though I wish someone would confirm.

Tim

Deadly quiet out there...

Amanda

Hi Guys,

I got an interview invitation recently. And the way I got the invitation seemed a bit inappropriate. I would like to get your thoughts.

I received the email at 9pm EST. I am a person who goes to bed early, and hence I was getting ready for bed. I did not check my email until the next morning. The email demanded a response within the next 6 hours. It said that if there was no response by 11:59pm pacific time there would be no guarantee of an interview. The email also asked for a minimum of 6 possible time slots to schedule the Skype interview, all within the next three days. The first interview slots were for the very morning after they sent out the email.

I found a 6 hour demand to respond a bit nutty. Job candidates are already under enough stress. To think that we now need to be obsessively checking our emails so we don't miss an interview opportunity is just crazy.Having only 3 days for skype interviews is not as bad, but it still seems a bit tight. Anyway, what do you guys think?

anonymous

That is outrageous Amanda. I would love to know what school it is. They should be shamed (or at least ashamed).
It is not normal.

Marcus Arvan

Amanda: I would not want to work for an employer who treats people that way. I know academic philosophy jobs are hard to come by, but I agree with anonymous: that is absolutely outrageous.

Amanda

Thanks. I am glad others feel the same way. It appears that someone else sent this out to Leiter. For those interested in the school check Leiter reports.

The entire email just felt so aggressive. It is using poor planning on the school's part to take advantage of very desperate candidates. (and as noted on Leiter, nowhere in the email is the school name mentioned. I had to guess which department wanted to interview me via the email address). I am wondering how many people on the committee signed off on this, and whether the department feels like they should make a statement.

Lisa

I am preparing for a first round interview coming up soon, and I was wondering if people out there feel like sharing their experiences. In particular, did you ever get some 'weird' or unexpected question during interviews? Thanks!

Marcus Arvan

Hi Lisa: Would you mind if I open up a new thread quoting your question? I think it's a great query, and it might be good to have an independent thread focusing on it!

Lisa

sure!

Tim

So... Did *just* the continental philosophy ODU job go to interviews?

Crapshoot

I have received rejections this week from the University of Oslo (post-do), Nazarbayev University, Manhattan College, and Gateway Community College in Connecticut.

Happy Friday

anyone else waiting to hear from North Texas?

Amanda

It is interesting how much later the job market has gotten. The conventional wisdom once was if you haven't heard before Christmas, then you are basically out for TT market. This year I have received four Skype interview invitations post Jan 5th. In addition, I have noticed various applications for traditional TT positions with deadlines in Mid Jan to the beginning of March!

Crapshoot

After I received the rejections I mentioned above, I received 2 more today: Princeton and Boston U. It seems like things are starting to move now.

anonymous

Crapshoot,
I think you are applying too broadly. If you are a viable candidate for Princeton, you should not waste your time with Gateway Comm. College. Likewise, if Gateway is the type of job you expect to get, you are wasting your time applying to Princeton and B.U. People need to be realistic. And they need to spend their time, energy, money, and psychic resources efficiently. Be realistic. This is why there are 600 applications for open positions. People are applying indiscriminately. Contrary to what some think, the job market is not a crapshoot.

Crapshoot

Anonymous,
Some of what you say is right, and some is wrong. It is a crapshoot, and I'm applying to broadly. The feedback I've gotten on my dossier this job market season by hiring departments suggests that I have gotten serious discussion, but that, ultimately, there are just so many applicants, and just so many quirks in taste within a particular department, that decisions get made rather arbitrarily sometimes.
Having said that, yes, I'm applying too broadly. There is absolutely 0% that Princeton will hire me. I know this. Yet, my adviser and placement director have told me to apply to such places because "Sure, the odds are terrible, but_you never know_". The fact of the matter is, there is nothing wrong with applying too broadly, except for the resource cost on my end. I've judged that it isn't enough of a drain on me to worry about. And, I really think this is the best approach, since, for any given opening, we applicants don't know the details of what the department is looking for, what the preferences of the department are, etc., beyond what the ads say. So, if you have the time and energy, best to apply to everything that reasonably fits one's teaching and research wheelhouse.

Second Time Around

Anonymous,

I am a finalist this year for a position for which I thought I had no shot. I actually thought to myself "I shouldn't even apply for this." before I did so. I think almost everyone else who looked at my CV and the advertisement would come to the same conclusion. I ended up applying because the application requirements were simple, and I didn't need to modify any of my materials. It literally took 5 minutes to send in my stuff.

My point being, it's very difficult to know which jobs are out of reach.

Tom

news from National Research University Higher School of Economics?

acqueprendo

Has anyone heard back from Boston College?

Amanda

Okay so I am getting super annoyed with last minute interview invitations. I just got an interview invitation at 6pm est asking for an interview at 9:30 the very next day! I happened to busy at the single time they asked. Don't search committees know most candidates are working at cannot stop everything on a dime to conform to their schedule! It would be one thing if they offered alternative slots Ugh.

snarky puppy

Amanda, it's annoying but I think I'm not alone sort of annoyed by your problem being having too many interviews. So hard.

snarky puppy

and btw while you're at it, I hope you're updating the wiki

Amanda

Well interviews are nice but so far I have not had a single campus visit. So don't be too jealous - without step two the first interview isn't worth much. At this point I think I am obviously doing something wrong. Not to mention, I had an interview this morning and I totally got stood up! I have no idea what happened, I hope at some point they will contact me.

Philosomom

I am a new mother (my child is less than 6 months old) and on the market. Any advice about how to deal with planning on-campus visits? I would like to bring my child with me since I am currently exclusively breastfeeding. My partner is willing to take off work and travel with me to care for the child. If you have had experience with this sort of situation (either on a search committee or as an applicant), I would greatly appreciate it.

Marcus Arvan

Philosophomom: I am going to open up a new thread to discuss your query, as it is an important one!

Philosomom

Thanks Marcus!

Granola Bar

I was recently told that I am (for a lack of a better term) wait-listed for a campus visit from a department that I have applied. Specifically, the department chair sent me an email explaining that they have invited their top 3 candidates for campus visits, but that I am in the small group of people that they might invite at a later date. It seems that the only way that I will get a shot is for the top 3 candidates to either accept offers elsewhere or completely ruin their campus visits. How likely do these things happen? What are the chances of a person who wasn't initially invited for a campus visit to eventually receive an offer?

anonymous

Granola Bar,
I have seen departments burn through a series of on campus candidates. First, in economics, for example, I have seen departments end up bringing six candidates to campus. And I once worked at a Philosophy department where there was an issue with each of the first three on campus candidates. Rather than close the search, and hope to reopen it next year, the department brought 1 or 2 others to campus. Candidates reject offers for lots of reasons: they learn that there are poor prospects for their partners; they come to believe the community would be hell to live in; they come to believe the department is screwed up; they get a better offer; etc. And candidates are not offered jobs for just as many reasons. Be hopeful.

Amanda

I would think in this job market few people would refuse offers. But maybe I'm wrong. How often are offers refused? Does anybody have an idea?

anonymous

Three years ago, I was the fifth ranked candidate and ended up getting a flyout and got offered my (current) job. Two years ago, I was on a search committee. We flew out our fourth ranked candidate after one of our three initial flyout candidates withdrew from the search before his flyout. I have a job in a large city that is a desirable place to live, my department is extremely collegial, it's an R1, it's basically a dream job for people who want to focus on research. So, in short, in this job market people refuse offers. Definitely. Even really really good offers. But in this job market also, departments can afford to be really picky. And sometimes they just will decide they made a mistake, or (in the case in the search I was involved with) the perceived difference in quality between the top three candidates and the next one was basically nil, and so it will seem dumb, once one person is out of the running, to not invite someone else. Don't underestimate how many reasons departments have for deciding they don't like a candidate that they've flown out. But also don't underestimate the possibility of people withdrawing from the search before they even have a flyout, or pretty quickly turning down an offer. (I also wouldn't have too much hope! I have no idea what the odds are, but I've heard of this happening in LOTS of searches, including at least two of my friends who now happily work at places where they were fourth in line and didn't initially get a flyout.) Also, having served on a couple search committees: sometimes there is a clear division between say the top three candidates and the next ones. But sometimes that division ends up being between the top four candidates and the next ones, or the top five, or the top two, and then all sorts of things can happen that are often quite arbitrary to decide who to bring to campus. So, it's important to know that there's a good chance that it was somewhat arbitrary that you weren't on the intitial flyout list, and that there is probably very little or no discernible difference in quality (in the minds of the committee) between you and the people on that list.

Hopeful?

In my current department, I would say that over the last five years our first-choice candidate has rejected our offer about 60% of the time, out of about 8 searches. I'm currently on the market, and will reject any offer that doesn't include a TT offer for my spouse. That doesn't burn through 3 candidates, but it means that it happens at least fairly frequently.

Lauren

Granola Bar, I once was on a search committee where we initially brought in 3 people. One was great on paper, but not so much in person and offended everyone on the campus visit. Because of this, we agreed he was not a contender, and instead, we brought in a fourth person, who eventually got the job offer. However, during graduate school, I was in a department that hired a lot, and I never saw anything like that; yes, some people were better than others, but I never saw anyone else so bad that additional candidates were brought out.

Only Wednesday

Grabbing onto hope desperately here: has anyone ever been invited to campus at X AFTER the wiki had been updated saying campus interviews were scheduled at X?

Job Candidate

Only Wednesday,

Not for fly outs, but this happened to me twice this year for first rounds. I thought I was screwed for two jobs because of Wiki, but received an invitation for a Skype interview a few days later. Not sure how helpful this is for your situation.

R

One time I received a fly-out invitation in mid-January, more than a month after they had sent their first fly-out invitations. In this case (as I learned later) they had found out in December about an opportunity to get extra money from the dean, and since they already were running an "open/open" search they decided to fly out more people and potentially make more than one hire.

Job Candidate

Does anyone have advice on choosing a topic for a teaching demonstration if they leave it wide open? Should you send a reading to pass along to students?

anonymous

Job Candidate,
Play to your strengths. Cover material that you have covered in classes, and that has gone over very well. If you are invited to suggest a reading suggested nothing longer than 10 pages (preferable less).

question

I heard strange rumors about Union's job search ... anybody knows anything about it?

Anonjobseeker

I just recieved notice that I was extended a first round interview in error. It took the department 2 days to realize this mistake. Once they realized it they just rescinded the interview offer. Is this usual practice? Did this happen to anyone else this weekend? I understand that institutions are under a lot of stress to do a search with few resources, but this seems like a pretty weird mistake to make.

Amanda

Wow that is pretty bad. Did you respond positively to the offer before the rescinded it? Do you know if the school had already done first rounds? Your name or email could have been similar, but it is weird. The other possibility is that they accidentally sent out offers instead of PFO's. In that case there most of been hundreds of people getting mistaken interview offers. Not good.

anonjobseeker

Amanda: I did respond positively to the offer before it was rescinded. It took them two days after my positive response to tell me about their "terrible mistake." My name is pretty unique--I seriously doubt that my name was confused for someone else's. The original invitation email included my name as part of the address, it wasn't just "Hello" or "Dear Applicant." I thought maybe they were trying to send out PFOs, but sent interview requests instead. That's why I'm trying to find out if this happened to anyone else.

The job market is already full of humiliations and indignities for job seekers. This just seems like insult to injury.

anotheranon

anonjobseeker:

I had the same experience with Missouri State. My guess is, as Amanda suggested, that they sent out that email to 250 folks.

If that's the case, they likely had 250 emails in their inbox! If it's not the case and what happened to me and you also happened to another handful of folks (say, we were on their near-short list), then they should have sucked it up and given us interviews, cutting us between the Skype and on-campus stage...no one would have been humiliated.

anonymous

anonjobseeker,
This is terrible. You should not hesitate to have an advocate - your thesis adviser, for example - call them and get a clear account of what happened.

anonjobseeker

anotheranon:

Yes, it was Missouri State. I hesitated to name them because I didn't want to identify myself if I was the only one who received the notice in error.

That was my thought as well. If they only accidentally invited me, they should have just done the interview. Like, you messed up. Just hold the interview and totally disregard me. You would know that it was a sham, but at least you would have saved face.

Honestly, I'm really tired of how the institutions running searches treat job candidates for simply asking for a bit of dignity. I asked another search for a reasonable accommodation and was sent a borderline hostile email that obviously had been drafted by HR. My adviser literally called it "outrageous."

Tom

FWI I applied to Missouri but have not heard from them.

Nick

I did not receive either a PFO or an invitation from Missouri State, so it's clear to me that they were meaning to send PFOs. Oh boy.

Nick

it's NOT clear to me. Sorry.

Amanda

Wow. A lot of bad behavior by search committees this year. Anonjobseeker, maybe you have a reason for privacy, but I am super curious about your accommodation. Did the school ever send out another email after you got the HR one?

And I agree, if they only sent the email to a couple of people by accident, they should have just done the skype interview. All it costs is a little time.

Only Wednesday

Way to go, Elon. Forgot to BCC applicants in their rejection email. Exactly what we need at this stage: people who can't do their job properly having an impact on overqualified people's futures.

Lauren

I am also a Missouri State applicant who has heard nothing. It's very weird that there is apparently a large enough group of people who (mistakenly) got extended a first-round interview along with another group that hasn't heard a word. For those of you got the rescinded interview offer, did Missouri State give any explanation at all? That really sucks, and I'm sorry.

acqueprendo

Is it time to abandon hopes of getting any first-round interviews by now? It's hard to figure out what the timeframes are this year, there are both places I applied to in November/October who have not gotten back with anything and places I applied to in December. One does not know what to think anymore

Nick

Lauren, my guess is they did not intend to send PFOs at all, at least not for now, but included some people on the wrong list. I hope I'm wrong and there's a third list of people - a waitlist? - but I'm not very hopeful.

Anonymous

FYI

https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/vcccd/jobs/1627757/philosophy-instructor

Community college position, tenure track.

Lauren

Nick, that is what I'm assuming (basically I am assuming no news is bad news at this point), but I wish schools would just send their PFOs off as soon as they can. (I know there are all sorts of HR reasons why some can't, and I get why a school would want to hold off if you're close to the cut-off, but I can't imagine I'm that close to the cut-off on all the schools I haven't heard anything from.)

Hopeful?

Does anyone have a sense of how long after a final fly-out you should expect schools to make an offer? I hate this policy of not letting the others flown out know whether an offer has even been made until it's accepted or rejected!

anotheranon

Hopeful:
It often depends on the administrative end of things...do they rubberstamp department requests or is the approval process complicated? is the administration slow in approving? or, even, are there many other searches going on at the school to slow down the process?

I once got the initial "we'd like to hire you" and then had to wait three weeks to get the contract, which I quickly signed...so that situation would greatly lengthen the time it took others to hear from the department that they won't receive a job offer.

In my experience, after the final on campus visit, it's been anywhere from a day to about three weeks to hear that I've been offered a position.

anon faculty

Hopeful:
How long a school extends an offer post-flyout depends on a variety of factors. For instance, they may have several other candidates to interview first. That might take several weeks. Then they may need a week to make the decision. At that point, they extend an offer (or run the decision past administrators which may add time), but suppose you are not the first-choice candidate. You will not hear a "no" until an offer has been accepted by someone else. But this can take several weeks or longer if the first-choice candidate has a competing offer. And if you are down the list, the school does not want you to walk away until they have a candidate confirmed. Plenty of positions have gone to candidates ranked second, third, and further down.

In other words, if you have had a flyout, you may not hear definitively for a while. Certainly you can check in, especially if you have a competing offer, but if you haven't heard yet, consider it a good sign (under ordinary circumstances, assuming the school is not failing to notify others that the position has been officially filled).

anonymous

Hope everyone realizes Elon can get sued for what they did [forgot to BCC all rejected applicants in rejection email]. Oh and they didn't apologize. They could use a little shaming.

Tom

What happen to the Old Dominium (logic) job? Has anyone heard anything?

Tom

what you all think: this year is the job wiki (at least somewhat) reliable? do people update it constantly and in a timely fashion?

Hopeful?

Tom, I would say no - in a number of cases I've seen jobs only go to the fly-out scheduled stage weeks after I know that friends of mine have had fly-outs scheduled.

anonymous

Tom and Hopeful,
I am from an earlier generation, before there was a job wiki. I think a moment's reflection should make you realize that of course people will game the wiki. It is just one more way people can psych out their competition (and this is perverse!). My recommendation: stay off the wiki and other such sites.

Tom

Thanks Hopeful?. I think people should try to update the job wiki more regularly, as a service to those who, after the first round, did not make it to the flyouts stage but were not notified of that by the school.

Tom

@ anonymous: perhaps I am being totally naive here, but I don't think anybody is gaming the wiki, they are just falling to update it regularly. And I believe the wiki is useful as it tells you when to give up hope about some particular job so you can focus on something else.

anonymous

Tom,
Once you put your application in, there is nothing more to think about until you get a call or e-mail. If people are spending time thinking about all the jobs they applied to, they are wasting their time. Instead, write another paper, or revise something that you have been working on.

Trevor Hedberg

I want to endorse the advice given by anonymous in the last few comments. This is my first year on the job market, and I have never been to the wiki once. I know many people who check it regularly, and their reactions to it have been universally negative. Moreover, I have been told my many people, including multiple placement directors, that the information on the wiki is often inaccurate for many reasons. I'm not sure what benefit checking the wiki is supposed to provide, but it seems to only serve as a source of despair and distraction. I would never advise job candidates to spend time on it.

Tim

I can give a very concrete positive reason for looking at the wiki: it tells me when I need to start pounding on doors about adjuncting gigs. Once I've been wiki-rejected from everywhere I've applied, I know I need to send out the "Dear Professor so and so, I was wondering if you have a job for me" emails. And the sooner I do this, the better it is for me.

Tom

Trevor, I don't think that anybody is "advised" to spend time on the wiki, it is just that waiting for months to hear back about the jobs you applied to is - for some of us - nerve-wrecking. Plus, I agree with Tim that the wiki tells you when it is time to look for other gigs and stuff.

In any case, if you have never been to the wiki once, how do you know it is so bad? Be as it may, if you have interviews/flyouts, please at least update it! Thanks!

E

Is it normal for the head of a search committee to refuse to discuss any details of a finalist's rejection, during the phone conversation in which the finalist learns of their rejection?

Amanda

How did the refusal go? I am impressed you got a phone call. From what I hear emails or nothing at all is the most common situation. And I think reasons given are usually along the lines of, "It was a hard decision and we had lots of great candidates..."

E

"Can you say a bit about the decision?"

"We cannot say anything about the decision"

"Oh. Why not?"

"I'm sorry. Best of luck"

Anon

Sometimes the decision is not about the candidate but internal politics. In that case, there's nothing helpful that can be said to the candidate--just pablum.

Amanda

Wow okay that is really rude. They could of at least said something like, "I wish we could help you with some more information. But unfortunately that is not possible do to reasons I am unable to discuss. I do sincerely wish you the best". Anyway, yeah that is a strange response.

slac chair

Anon 8:21 is right about many cases. But even when the decision is not about internal politics, but the candidates themselves, there is little to say. At this stage, most candidates are excellent, and little separates them. The answer to your question would something like "we found someone else a bit better for our program than you." Even if they said why someone else was better, it wouldn't provide useful information, as the criteria would likely depend heavily on their particular situation. That said, the response you got is rude.

Less Hopeful

So does anyone have a sense of whether it is now standard for hiring departments to go into radio silence after fly outs? I thought the standard was to send an email saying roughly "We enjoyed meeting you and getting to interview you. We have made an offer to another candidate, and/but will/will not be in touch again if they reject that offer. Good luck with your job search." But I haven't heard a peep from any of the places I had fly outs, and it's been 3+ weeks since the final fly out scheduled in every case.

tenured

@ Less Hopeful: I don't know about normal, but what you describe certainly does happen, and there can be any number of reasons for it. If it's been three weeks there is nothing at all wrong with e-mailing someone to ask what's up.

anonymous

Less Hopeful,
If you want to know the status of things just ask. Departments are more and more under the control of HR departments, and HR departments want as little said as possible. Any information can be used against an institution.

NA

Has anyone heard anything about the WUSTL post-doc? I've heard nothing, and I'm pretty sure they sent out PFO's in early Feb. last year.

Stuck, PhD

NA: A friend who used to be a PNP fellow at WUSTL told me a few weeks ago that the job went to someone with 20-something pubs. But I was under the impression they hired two fellows a year, and it seems possible to me that anyone with 20-something pubs could back out, so... I don't know. Hope that helps.

Less Hopeful

Does anyone know who got either of the Northeastern jobs?

Only Wednesday

Less Hopeful: I've heard they made offers to people waiting to get tenure. This may be a long process.

jabberwock

Anyone heard anything from St. Joseph's Seminary College?

Less Hopeful

Thanks, only Wednesday!

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